FIRST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH - CARBONDALE, ILLINOIS
June, 2008 Newsletter
• MINERS BASEBALL GAME
Saturday, July 12, 7:05 p.m.
The first fellowship event of the new program year is a Miners baseball game. The Fellowship ministry has purchased reserved seats on Saturday, July 12. The game starts at 7:05 p.m. at the Rent One Park in Marion. The sign-up sheet for tickets is posted in the narthex. The cost is $5 each. We have only 50 tickets, so sign up early if you’re interested. Checks should be made payable to the church. See you at the game!
• TASSELS AND MORE TASSELS
This is the “Year of the Tassel” at First Presbyterian Church. The more I asked the more tassels I found. The following individuals graduated this year. This is not guaranteed to be everyone. Just the one’s I found. If you have additions, we will be pleased to acknowledge others who are completing degrees. Submitted by Steve Dawson.
From the Eighth Grade
Brianna Darling — Granddaughter of Don & Betty Darling
From High School
Margaret Goss — Granddaughter of Allan and Barbara Bennett
Andrew Martinson — Grandson of John and Dorothy Baker
Brooks Robinson — Son of Anne and Marty Robinson and Grandson of Don & Betty Darling
From College — Grandsons and Granddaughters
Sarah Burnett — University of Illinois - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Morgan Feirich — University of California Long Beach - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Jenny Mick — Shawnee Junior College - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Mary York — University of California Santa Cruz - Granddaughter of David and Mary Rendleman
Daniel Hooker — University of Wisconsin - Grandson of John & Carolyn Hooker
From College — Sons and Daughters of Memebers
Jonathan Brooks — SIUC - Son of Jay & Mary Jane Brooks
Emma Danley — University of Illinois - Daughter of Steve and Jan Danley
Jennifer Langin — SIUC - Daughter of Chet and Flossie Langin
Cara Sronce — Carroll College Waukesha, WI - Daughter of Alan & Robin Sronce
From College — Members of our Choir and Handbells
Carlyn Zimmerman — Masters Degree SIUC
Andy Martin — SIUC
Michelle Myers — SIUC
Krista Enderli — SIUC
We congratulate these Graduates and wish them the best in life’s journey.
• MORE COFFEE HOSTS ARE NEEDED!
If you’ve returned the flier to volunteer as acoffee host, thank you! If you have not, please do so as soon as possible. We cannot ask the same few families to prepare coffee over and over throughout the year! Please sign up now to assist with this simple task. Fliers will be in Sunday bulletins and can be turned in to the church office. Thank you!
• RESTAURANT GROUP
The Restaurant Group will meet at Hunan’s on East Main St. in Carbondale on Thursday, June 19, at 5:30 p.m. Please call Tim Langdon at 457-4206 to make a reservation. The Restaurant Group is open to anyone who would like to share a meal with this congenial bunch. Come try us, you’ll like us.
• CHOIR DIRECTOR
The Personnel Committee is pleased to announce that Carlyn Zimmermann will be our Choir Director for 2008-2009.
• SUMMER SUNDAY SALAD NIGHT
We have found these book studies to be a great combination of discussion, food, and fellowship the past two summers. Even though Pastor Janice will not take part this summer, we will continue the tradition.
Two fine books by authors we have read in the past are being considered: The Heart of Christianity: Rediscovering a Life of Faith by Marcus J. Borg and God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question—Why We Suffer by Bart D. Ehrman. The latter might be an interesting extension of the sermon preached on May 18 by Pastor Anne Jones, “In the beginning...”
The study group will meet from June 29 through August 3. Your vacation might cut into a meeting or two. We seemed to have worked around this without difficulty.
Couples and singles of all ages are encouraged to attend.
Please contact Karen Hippensteel or Dorothy Baker, Small Groups Ministry Team Elders if you are interested in being a part of the group this summer. There also will be a sign-up sheet on the bulletin board in the hall. We need to know by June 18. A copy of the book will be in the church office for you to peruse.
You can reach Karen at: 684-4282 or khippensteel@yahoo.com
You can reach Dorothy at: 549-2560 or jhbaker@siu.edu
• MISSION NEWS
Thanks to all who facilitated and attended the Mother’s Day Tea! We received $782.00 in donations for the Women’s Center.
Save the Dates! We will have two more events in June:
Tools and Blankets Sunday sponsored by Church World Service is June 15. For a $5.00 gift you can send a blanket to people in need or for a $15.00 gift you can send a set of garden tools. There will be collection containers in the Narthex or you can put a check in the collection plate. In either case, the checks should be made payable to the church and have “Tools and Blankets” witten in the memo line in the bottom left hand corner.
A special fundraising dinner for the Honduras Mission Trip will be held on Saturday, June 21 in the Fellowship Hall from 6 - 8 p.m.
• MEMBERSHIP COMMITTEE
Our committee meets to explore ideas, to learn from one another, to discuss experiences and ideas of faith. At our most recent meeting, we began with the ‘simple’ question: “Why be a member of this church?” This began an interesting and lively discussion, some lighthearted (for example, several suggested the main benefit of membership was getting to serve on committees!), and some heartfelt…such as expressions about helping one another when in need, and being fully committed to our church family just as we are to our biological families. Honestly, I never expected such interesting and intense discussions to be a part of Membership Committee.
Of course, there are the other concerns which seem more mundane and practical by comparison, but which engender equal interest and discussion:
1. Thanks to Gerry Buys for changing the banners on University Avenue!
2. We are making plans for a new membership class.
3. In celebration of our most recent new members, Nick Owen and Robert Martens, our committee hosted the coffee hour following services Sunday, May 11. Hope you enjoyed the cake! Wild Pentecost colors!
4. We are considering new ways to organize name tags, but this will take us a while because there are a lot of decisions to consider. In the meantime, a big shout of thanks to Tracy Prosser for volunteering to replace the ribbons on the current name tag stands!
5. We’d like everyone who attends church services to sign the pew cards. Doing so helps all of us build connections with one another, and helps the Membership Committee provide accurate information for our Annual Report. Thanks!!
6. When new folks visit our church services they can count on friendly greetings by our church members. Thanks to all of you who do this! Our Committee is also responsible for developing a way to reach out to these visitors. More to come.
7. Meet our Church Family. Here’s an opportunity for all of us to get to know one another just a little bit better: A picture and short biography (interests, hobbies, etc.) of those of us in our church family. More to come on this, too.
• GATEWAYS TO GOD'S GALAXY
Gateways will be taking a summer break from its regular rotation of lessons and activities. However, there will always be something to do in room 140 from 10:30 – noon. Some one from Gateways will be there to help with the morning’s activity. Arts and crafts, video, computer, books to read, games, and other things will be set up and available every Sunday morning. Parents, of course, are welcome.
• YOUTH SUNDAY
Youth Sunday will be June 29. Peter Alexander is coordinating this worship service. Children from Gateways will sing four of their songs during that morning’s service. The Youth Group will participate, as will others currently working with children and youth of all ages. Watch for more information, but do mark your calendar for this unique worship service.
• MARKETPLACE REGISTRATION IS DUE JULY 1
The brochures are available in Fellowship Hall, the church office, and from Kitty Trescott. See the Newsletter insert for a form as well. Volunteer sign-up sheets are in Fellowship Hall: shopkeepers, mothers, drama, music, kitchen, support team, child care, and helpers.
Marketplace: For children in Kindergarten through Fifth Grade (as of this fall).
Beyond Marketplace: For youth in grades 6,7, & 8, as of this fall. See Diane Cash for more information and details of this program. The dates, places, and times are the same as Marketplace. Their focus is on mission and service to Carbondale facilities.
Every Monday evening from 6:30 – 8:30 p.m., Marketplace planning meetings are held in Fellowship Hall. Shopkeepers are encouraged to come to examine their materials and consider what advance preparations are needed. The Drama group will meet those evenings also. Mothers will have their meeting the last Monday in June. Help is needed in preparing materials. Ask Kitty if there is anything you can do, or check the “Help Wanted” table in Fellowship Hall. Remember to collect egg shells cleaned and crushed, smooth sided jars and glasses. Magazines will be needed for Beyond Marketplace. Look for the basket in Fellowship Hall for collecting those.
• CAMP CAREW
Information is available in the church office for Camp Carew. Sessions are offered for June, July, and August for day camp or resident camp, for just a few days or for a full week.
• YOUTH GROUP
The Youth Class will break for the summer. However, the Youth Room will be available every Sunday morning for impromptu meetings and activities. Plans are being made to attend Montreat, and to raise money to help with that endeavor. Watch for details about the upcoming events.
• FAITH DEVELOPMENT
Faith Dialogues will take a break for the summer. Ideas and leaders for the fall are being considered. If you have suggestions for topics or would like to lead a presentation and discussion, talk to Diane or Joe Cash, Jane Swanson, or Peter Hertzig.
• PRESCHOOL
The Preschool had a great week of closing activities with each class doing something special. The Polliwogs (2 year olds) enjoyed a special ice cream treat. The Tadpoles (3 year olds) had a water play day, pony rides at Giant City Stables and a picnic. The Frogs (4 year olds) had their graduation program and picnic in Fellowship Hall on May 15. Everyone enjoyed the fun!
The Preschool staff and the Board felt this was another successful year and look forward to the same next year. The new two year old program was very successful and the board commends the teachers for designing an excellent program. The Board also commends the teachers in the 4 year old program for an outstanding job of readying the children for kindergarten in the fall.
The Staff and Board thanks the church for their support this past year and wishes everyone a good, safe summer. See everyone in the fall!
• DAYCARE
The Daycare enjoyed several special events and field trips in May.
The Three year old and Preschool classes went to SIU farms and saw the dairy cows, horses and pigs. The Toddlers, Twos, Threes, and Preschoolers classes had a great time on the train ride to DuQuoin.
We enjoyed entertaining lots of our Mother’s and friends at out Mother’s Day tea party.
On Saturday, May 31, we will have our annual Picnic/Preschool Graduation at Turley Park. We will gather at the shelter with all the tables about 11:00 am. Feel free to join us for this special celebration.
Looking ahead: Friday, June 13 will be have our Father’s Day Luncheon at 11:30 am in Fellowship Hall. Please join us if you can.
• GRILL OFF
Twenty-five people of all ages gathered on the church “green” on May 17 for the first annual grill-off. Our three outstanding grill chefs, Jim Calloway, Pat Manfredi, and Bill Martens, took the competition very seriously and provided a delicious array of grilled chicken, steak, and bratwursts. They each received an apron with the church Vision logo, as did Phyllis Beck for the best side dish and Barbara Bennett for the best dessert. If you weren’t there, you most certainly missed a wonderful meal, delightful fellowship, and some tough competition!
• MARGARET ANNE OVERSTREET
The Presbytery of Southeastern Illinois invites your prayers and your presence in the worship of God and in joyful celebration as Margaret Anne Overstreet is ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament.
Saturday, June 7, 2008 at 2:00 p.m. at the First Presbyterian Church, 34 West Poplar, Harrisburg, Illinois. Reception to follow in the Fellowship Hall.
• CARAVAN FOR CUBA
The Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization (IFCO) and Pastors for Peace are once again collecting humanitarian aid for the people of Cuba. To learn about their work, please attend the Caravan for Cuba dinner at the Unitarian Church in Carbondale on Wednesday, June 25. A box for donations of humanitarian aid will be placed in the narthex at the First Presbyterian Church. As before, the Caravan for Cuba organization is seeking items to assist the elderly, including medical equipment, such as walkers, wheelchairs, canes, and medicines. Spanish language Bibles, and medical and scientific textbooks in Spanish or English are also welcome (other types of books are not accepted). Other items sought include educational supplies such as paper, pens and pencils, sporting equipment, and art supplies. You may also make a monetary donation at the dinner or on line at http://www.ifconews.org/Cuba/caravan17/main.htm. If you have any questions, contact Margie Parker at 618-549-7193.
• A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY OFFERED BY TAX REBATE
The current tax rebate of $600.00 ($1,200.00 for couples) gives us a great and (almost) painless way to complete the unfinished office space and Fellowship Hall. Session, via the Stewardship Committee is now hard at work on this project. Neal and Judy Foland plan to donate their $1,200.00 rebate check to this endeavor. If all who could would do the same most of the cost would be covered. This is money we were not expecting and spending it in this way would help stimulate the economy as intended. Please think about it! Neal Foland
June, 2008 Newsletter
• MINERS BASEBALL GAME
Saturday, July 12, 7:05 p.m.
The first fellowship event of the new program year is a Miners baseball game. The Fellowship ministry has purchased reserved seats on Saturday, July 12. The game starts at 7:05 p.m. at the Rent One Park in Marion. The sign-up sheet for tickets is posted in the narthex. The cost is $5 each. We have only 50 tickets, so sign up early if you’re interested. Checks should be made payable to the church. See you at the game!
• TASSELS AND MORE TASSELS
This is the “Year of the Tassel” at First Presbyterian Church. The more I asked the more tassels I found. The following individuals graduated this year. This is not guaranteed to be everyone. Just the one’s I found. If you have additions, we will be pleased to acknowledge others who are completing degrees. Submitted by Steve Dawson.
From the Eighth Grade
Brianna Darling — Granddaughter of Don & Betty Darling
From High School
Margaret Goss — Granddaughter of Allan and Barbara Bennett
Andrew Martinson — Grandson of John and Dorothy Baker
Brooks Robinson — Son of Anne and Marty Robinson and Grandson of Don & Betty Darling
From College — Grandsons and Granddaughters
Sarah Burnett — University of Illinois - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Morgan Feirich — University of California Long Beach - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Jenny Mick — Shawnee Junior College - Granddaughter of Neal and Judy Foland
Mary York — University of California Santa Cruz - Granddaughter of David and Mary Rendleman
Daniel Hooker — University of Wisconsin - Grandson of John & Carolyn Hooker
From College — Sons and Daughters of Memebers
Jonathan Brooks — SIUC - Son of Jay & Mary Jane Brooks
Emma Danley — University of Illinois - Daughter of Steve and Jan Danley
Jennifer Langin — SIUC - Daughter of Chet and Flossie Langin
Cara Sronce — Carroll College Waukesha, WI - Daughter of Alan & Robin Sronce
From College — Members of our Choir and Handbells
Carlyn Zimmerman — Masters Degree SIUC
Andy Martin — SIUC
Michelle Myers — SIUC
Krista Enderli — SIUC
We congratulate these Graduates and wish them the best in life’s journey.
• MORE COFFEE HOSTS ARE NEEDED!
If you’ve returned the flier to volunteer as acoffee host, thank you! If you have not, please do so as soon as possible. We cannot ask the same few families to prepare coffee over and over throughout the year! Please sign up now to assist with this simple task. Fliers will be in Sunday bulletins and can be turned in to the church office. Thank you!
• RESTAURANT GROUP
The Restaurant Group will meet at Hunan’s on East Main St. in Carbondale on Thursday, June 19, at 5:30 p.m. Please call Tim Langdon at 457-4206 to make a reservation. The Restaurant Group is open to anyone who would like to share a meal with this congenial bunch. Come try us, you’ll like us.
• CHOIR DIRECTOR
The Personnel Committee is pleased to announce that Carlyn Zimmermann will be our Choir Director for 2008-2009.
• SUMMER SUNDAY SALAD NIGHT
We have found these book studies to be a great combination of discussion, food, and fellowship the past two summers. Even though Pastor Janice will not take part this summer, we will continue the tradition.
Two fine books by authors we have read in the past are being considered: The Heart of Christianity: Rediscovering a Life of Faith by Marcus J. Borg and God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question—Why We Suffer by Bart D. Ehrman. The latter might be an interesting extension of the sermon preached on May 18 by Pastor Anne Jones, “In the beginning...”
The study group will meet from June 29 through August 3. Your vacation might cut into a meeting or two. We seemed to have worked around this without difficulty.
Couples and singles of all ages are encouraged to attend.
Please contact Karen Hippensteel or Dorothy Baker, Small Groups Ministry Team Elders if you are interested in being a part of the group this summer. There also will be a sign-up sheet on the bulletin board in the hall. We need to know by June 18. A copy of the book will be in the church office for you to peruse.
You can reach Karen at: 684-4282 or khippensteel@yahoo.com
You can reach Dorothy at: 549-2560 or jhbaker@siu.edu
• MISSION NEWS
Thanks to all who facilitated and attended the Mother’s Day Tea! We received $782.00 in donations for the Women’s Center.
Save the Dates! We will have two more events in June:
Tools and Blankets Sunday sponsored by Church World Service is June 15. For a $5.00 gift you can send a blanket to people in need or for a $15.00 gift you can send a set of garden tools. There will be collection containers in the Narthex or you can put a check in the collection plate. In either case, the checks should be made payable to the church and have “Tools and Blankets” witten in the memo line in the bottom left hand corner.
A special fundraising dinner for the Honduras Mission Trip will be held on Saturday, June 21 in the Fellowship Hall from 6 - 8 p.m.
• MEMBERSHIP COMMITTEE
Our committee meets to explore ideas, to learn from one another, to discuss experiences and ideas of faith. At our most recent meeting, we began with the ‘simple’ question: “Why be a member of this church?” This began an interesting and lively discussion, some lighthearted (for example, several suggested the main benefit of membership was getting to serve on committees!), and some heartfelt…such as expressions about helping one another when in need, and being fully committed to our church family just as we are to our biological families. Honestly, I never expected such interesting and intense discussions to be a part of Membership Committee.
Of course, there are the other concerns which seem more mundane and practical by comparison, but which engender equal interest and discussion:
1. Thanks to Gerry Buys for changing the banners on University Avenue!
2. We are making plans for a new membership class.
3. In celebration of our most recent new members, Nick Owen and Robert Martens, our committee hosted the coffee hour following services Sunday, May 11. Hope you enjoyed the cake! Wild Pentecost colors!4. We are considering new ways to organize name tags, but this will take us a while because there are a lot of decisions to consider. In the meantime, a big shout of thanks to Tracy Prosser for volunteering to replace the ribbons on the current name tag stands!
5. We’d like everyone who attends church services to sign the pew cards. Doing so helps all of us build connections with one another, and helps the Membership Committee provide accurate information for our Annual Report. Thanks!!
6. When new folks visit our church services they can count on friendly greetings by our church members. Thanks to all of you who do this! Our Committee is also responsible for developing a way to reach out to these visitors. More to come.
7. Meet our Church Family. Here’s an opportunity for all of us to get to know one another just a little bit better: A picture and short biography (interests, hobbies, etc.) of those of us in our church family. More to come on this, too.
• GATEWAYS TO GOD'S GALAXY
Gateways will be taking a summer break from its regular rotation of lessons and activities. However, there will always be something to do in room 140 from 10:30 – noon. Some one from Gateways will be there to help with the morning’s activity. Arts and crafts, video, computer, books to read, games, and other things will be set up and available every Sunday morning. Parents, of course, are welcome.
• YOUTH SUNDAY
Youth Sunday will be June 29. Peter Alexander is coordinating this worship service. Children from Gateways will sing four of their songs during that morning’s service. The Youth Group will participate, as will others currently working with children and youth of all ages. Watch for more information, but do mark your calendar for this unique worship service.
• MARKETPLACE REGISTRATION IS DUE JULY 1
The brochures are available in Fellowship Hall, the church office, and from Kitty Trescott. See the Newsletter insert for a form as well. Volunteer sign-up sheets are in Fellowship Hall: shopkeepers, mothers, drama, music, kitchen, support team, child care, and helpers.
Marketplace: For children in Kindergarten through Fifth Grade (as of this fall).
Beyond Marketplace: For youth in grades 6,7, & 8, as of this fall. See Diane Cash for more information and details of this program. The dates, places, and times are the same as Marketplace. Their focus is on mission and service to Carbondale facilities.
Every Monday evening from 6:30 – 8:30 p.m., Marketplace planning meetings are held in Fellowship Hall. Shopkeepers are encouraged to come to examine their materials and consider what advance preparations are needed. The Drama group will meet those evenings also. Mothers will have their meeting the last Monday in June. Help is needed in preparing materials. Ask Kitty if there is anything you can do, or check the “Help Wanted” table in Fellowship Hall. Remember to collect egg shells cleaned and crushed, smooth sided jars and glasses. Magazines will be needed for Beyond Marketplace. Look for the basket in Fellowship Hall for collecting those.
• CAMP CAREW
Information is available in the church office for Camp Carew. Sessions are offered for June, July, and August for day camp or resident camp, for just a few days or for a full week.
• YOUTH GROUP
The Youth Class will break for the summer. However, the Youth Room will be available every Sunday morning for impromptu meetings and activities. Plans are being made to attend Montreat, and to raise money to help with that endeavor. Watch for details about the upcoming events.
• FAITH DEVELOPMENT
Faith Dialogues will take a break for the summer. Ideas and leaders for the fall are being considered. If you have suggestions for topics or would like to lead a presentation and discussion, talk to Diane or Joe Cash, Jane Swanson, or Peter Hertzig.
• PRESCHOOL
The Preschool had a great week of closing activities with each class doing something special. The Polliwogs (2 year olds) enjoyed a special ice cream treat. The Tadpoles (3 year olds) had a water play day, pony rides at Giant City Stables and a picnic. The Frogs (4 year olds) had their graduation program and picnic in Fellowship Hall on May 15. Everyone enjoyed the fun!
The Preschool staff and the Board felt this was another successful year and look forward to the same next year. The new two year old program was very successful and the board commends the teachers for designing an excellent program. The Board also commends the teachers in the 4 year old program for an outstanding job of readying the children for kindergarten in the fall.
The Staff and Board thanks the church for their support this past year and wishes everyone a good, safe summer. See everyone in the fall!
• DAYCARE
The Daycare enjoyed several special events and field trips in May.
The Three year old and Preschool classes went to SIU farms and saw the dairy cows, horses and pigs. The Toddlers, Twos, Threes, and Preschoolers classes had a great time on the train ride to DuQuoin.
We enjoyed entertaining lots of our Mother’s and friends at out Mother’s Day tea party.
On Saturday, May 31, we will have our annual Picnic/Preschool Graduation at Turley Park. We will gather at the shelter with all the tables about 11:00 am. Feel free to join us for this special celebration.
Looking ahead: Friday, June 13 will be have our Father’s Day Luncheon at 11:30 am in Fellowship Hall. Please join us if you can.
• GRILL OFFTwenty-five people of all ages gathered on the church “green” on May 17 for the first annual grill-off. Our three outstanding grill chefs, Jim Calloway, Pat Manfredi, and Bill Martens, took the competition very seriously and provided a delicious array of grilled chicken, steak, and bratwursts. They each received an apron with the church Vision logo, as did Phyllis Beck for the best side dish and Barbara Bennett for the best dessert. If you weren’t there, you most certainly missed a wonderful meal, delightful fellowship, and some tough competition!
• MARGARET ANNE OVERSTREET
The Presbytery of Southeastern Illinois invites your prayers and your presence in the worship of God and in joyful celebration as Margaret Anne Overstreet is ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament.
Saturday, June 7, 2008 at 2:00 p.m. at the First Presbyterian Church, 34 West Poplar, Harrisburg, Illinois. Reception to follow in the Fellowship Hall.
• CARAVAN FOR CUBA
The Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization (IFCO) and Pastors for Peace are once again collecting humanitarian aid for the people of Cuba. To learn about their work, please attend the Caravan for Cuba dinner at the Unitarian Church in Carbondale on Wednesday, June 25. A box for donations of humanitarian aid will be placed in the narthex at the First Presbyterian Church. As before, the Caravan for Cuba organization is seeking items to assist the elderly, including medical equipment, such as walkers, wheelchairs, canes, and medicines. Spanish language Bibles, and medical and scientific textbooks in Spanish or English are also welcome (other types of books are not accepted). Other items sought include educational supplies such as paper, pens and pencils, sporting equipment, and art supplies. You may also make a monetary donation at the dinner or on line at http://www.ifconews.org/Cuba/caravan17/main.htm. If you have any questions, contact Margie Parker at 618-549-7193.
• A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY OFFERED BY TAX REBATE
The current tax rebate of $600.00 ($1,200.00 for couples) gives us a great and (almost) painless way to complete the unfinished office space and Fellowship Hall. Session, via the Stewardship Committee is now hard at work on this project. Neal and Judy Foland plan to donate their $1,200.00 rebate check to this endeavor. If all who could would do the same most of the cost would be covered. This is money we were not expecting and spending it in this way would help stimulate the economy as intended. Please think about it! Neal Foland